HC (Penalty) - Chicago Bulls and New York Knicks

[Matt]

I'm not accusing you of trying to catch people! I think that's twisting my words. My read is that you're trying to get us to the regular season and are holding me accountable for a mistake, which I think is fair. I'm just trying to give my perspective

[Jesse]

Defer to Sim God on all rules, but my two (totally unsolicited) cents...

-I think the Bulls penalty makes total sense as a compromise. Frontloading didn't even exist until a couple of days ago. Seems like not a big deal?

-The Knicks one is tough since the Knicks were not *technically* over the hard cap...yet. Being at only 8 before the opening sim is definitely not allowed and results in the commish signing players and putting them over the HC. Does the 24-hr clock on that start when ashes signs the players, or do we need to be at 12 (and under $85M) when the season flips? I have actually never seen this exact situation before and not sure it's 100% spelled out. The penalty seems a little harsh given the context, but it's a technicality, so idk...

...i say this as someone who owns the knicks 1sts and would very much benefit from Nav taking this penalty, but it does seem quite harsh if it's not 100% spelled out

[Joe]

https://simleaguenirvana.com/viewtopic.php?t=402

https://simleaguenirvana.proboards.com/ ... -grizzlies

https://simleaguenirvana.com/viewtopic.php?t=480

And several other TC posts with me pointing out the same. I get the frustration, but I honestly thought my solution/“penalty” for you was more than fair. I am more on the fence about the Knicks because I don’t know what’s going on with Nav.

Not sure if Nav is going to respond here because he's slammed, but he's just started a new job and has told us in real life he's been up until like 2AM every night this week working, so I know he hasn't been on the boards much if at all. Not recommending any specific path forward, just an inform in response to your post here. I recognize too that the 24 hours after TC timeline has been well-established and you did post a warning in the TC thread so your point is quite valid, I think he likely missed that (I didn't see him post in that TC thread like he normally does) and was either expecting the "timer starts now" separate post where he was tagged or waiting for NDL TC to show up - I can shoot him a text and see whats up, because I know he's now aware of the penalty.

[ashes]

Nav reached out. I will clarify penalties soon.

[SoNicks]

Unfortunately this is now an insanely politicized issue haha. With factions on each side. I think it’s clear that both flirted much too much with the HC and as O6 figureheads, they are the perfect people to set a precedent with. But with that in mind I think it’s important to note that SLN inspires to be, for the most part, a realistic representation of the NBA. With that in mind, I have found only one instance of firsts being stripped from a team for rules violations. In fact the clippers did extremely similar things as the Timberwolves (the aforementioned team) and only received monetary fines.

I’ve always thought the “straight to jail” HC penalty was ludicrous and way too severe of a penalty. But unfortunately it has been in the rules since day one.

1 first, forced RP buyout of JR smith which then comes out of the next 3yr RP trade balance, loss of every outstanding second, and some article and or Pod requirement (at his availability) to serve as service and reparations to the realm is I think a brutal enough penalty with out spreading … Camby vibes

[heimer]

[quady]

Did the Bulls / Pacers deal to get Matt under work at the time it was agreed to? If so, I think Matt has a pretty good case to avoid any penalties. It seems like a bad precedent to be beyond the post-TC HC deadline when we're processing the offseason transactions and then have someone fall out of HC compliance based on a second GM's moves after agreeing to help get you under. Also opens up potential avenues to mess with each other

[ashes]

Did the Bulls / Pacers deal to get Matt under work at the time it was agreed to? If so, I think Matt has a pretty good case to avoid any penalties. It seems like a bad precedent to be beyond the post-TC HC deadline when we're processing the offseason transactions and then have someone fall out of HC compliance based on a second GM's moves after agreeing to help get you under. Also opens up potential avenues to mess with each other

No, because that deal was posted after leftover FAs, it would’ve never been processed in a way that worked, same with the TOR/IND/SA trade.

[ashes]

And in the event you have deals that require space/draft picks to not be made/etc the precedent has always been to mention it either in the trade title, trade post, or a PM to me because it is A LOT of extra work/not even feasible without undoing things for me to start processing and then figure out there were extenuating circumstances to make the trade work.

[ashes]

Unfortunately this is now an insanely politicized issue haha. With factions on each side. I think it’s clear that both flirted much too much with the HC and as O6 figureheads, they are the perfect people to set a precedent with. But with that in mind I think it’s important to note that SLN inspires to be, for the most part, a realistic representation of the NBA. With that in mind, I have found only one instance of firsts being stripped from a team for rules violations. In fact the clippers did extremely similar things as the Timberwolves (the aforementioned team) and only received monetary fines.

I’ve always thought the “straight to jail” HC penalty was ludicrous and way too severe of a penalty. But unfortunately it has been in the rules since day one.

1 first, forced RP buyout of JR smith which then comes out of the next 3yr RP trade balance, loss of every outstanding second, and some article and or Pod requirement (at his availability) to serve as service and reparations to the realm is I think a brutal enough penalty with out spreading … Camby vibes

The problem with RP as a penalty is it still trivializes the HC even if RP is important and scarce. The HC exists for competitive balance of the league and all the rules/ratings are designed with it in mind. It has to be a penalty worth something or else the whole system is pointless and if the whole system is pointless, the league is not fun (at least not for me).

I get the HC stuff sucks. No HC leagues are far worse imo because as long as you don’t lose out on a rookie FA, you are essentially guaranteed to retain anyone in perpetuity. Luxury tax is bad because no amount of camps/scouts/franchising/frontloading will have a higher value than just retaining all your superstars.

I understand we do this league for fun and I promise you the way things are set up create more fun. The entire reason we have had multiple HC rule changes/clarification and seem to go through a scenario like this every 5 or 6 seasons is because while the HC system creates a better league for everyone, actually slapping a HC penalty on someone is never fun. Not for the GM and definitely not for me, which is why I’ve been very lenient! My issue is that at some point the line has to be there, we can’t keep making exceptions and moving it back because that defeats the purpose of the system entirely. And 98% of the time we are fine because we all police ourselves and make the right moves and keep things going great. Sometimes mistakes are made.

That being said, I get the frustration/confusion and I get that real life rears its head sometimes. That is why I made this thread. Regardless, something still needs to be done. I also look at these things from a practical standpoint as well. One, it’s unreasonable to expect the Pacers (the only team with any cap space left, with a still outstanding trade and a full roster) to be able to solve this issue for the Knicks (still need 4 players and have very limited salaries) AND the Bulls (currently at 11 players, 1.7M over the cap, and with mostly limited salary options as well). While I do not doubt the creativity of you guys in making stuff happen, it’s still a relatively unreasonable situation to be in at the start of the season with a very extended offseason.

Not going to keep rambling here but the big takeaways and final conclusions are:

-Every Training Camp thread post will contain the words “You have 24 hours to ensure you are under the HC. If you have any concerns/questions, PM ashes.” In bold red letters. This has been the standard for awhile now, but it will now be reinforced in the opening post of TC. This will be the warning for everyone, there will be no separate you might get HC’d team X post. This is the standard for everyone, an entire draft, FA, and day after TC. The only numbers that matter 24hrs after TC are <85M and at least 12 players on your roster (or at least enough space to sign rookie mins to reach that number).

-Matt, I am reversing Tony Parker’s front loaded contract. You can obviously have your RP back for its cost. This really isn’t a penalty, this is akin to an “oopsie I signed a guy in leftover FA that put me over” (which has happened before).

-Nav, I understand sometimes real life just does its thing. JR Smith is being sent to waivers. No additional penalty.